Self Perception.

[swestrup]

Don't you just hate it when you start to realize that a flaw that you dislike in someone else, is also a flaw that you have?  This happened a week or so ago for me, and I've been meaning to post about it, but never got around to it before.

There was a study that I read that said that most women who are interested in meeting someone new at a party will tend to not eat much, or at least not let prospective new boyfriends see them eat. So, when the sociologists polled men, what did they find most attractive? Thin women with hearty appetites. So, the best strategy for a woman to interest a man turned out to be to eat lightly whenever he wasn't looking, and to eat heartily whenever he was, which was the opposite of what they were doing.

The sociologists did more studies and it turned out that other women are put off by a thin woman who's eating heartily, and so most women were subconsiously acting in a way that they would find attractive in themselves, even though men look for something different.

At first I was thinking that that was pretty short-sighted on the part of the women, not to have realized this already. My second thought was that I do the exact same thing. I have NO idea how women judge men. I've never been able to figure out why some men are considered attractive to women, and others are not. Despite this, I've always thought that I was completely unattractive because, basically, I would never date me, given the choice.

Now, having realized that, I still have no idea what makes men attractive to women and were I still shopping around for a mate, this realization would have done nothing to optimize my search strategies. As is, it made me realize that I am even less qualified to judge my attractiveness than I realized (and that I should not therefor automatically assume that I'm unttractive), and that it is far more tricky to spot and avoid hidden assumptions than one might at first suspect.

Comments

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

This is an astute observation.

My solution to this is to find women friends, and have them tell you what they find attractive/unattractive about you. You're going to have to find very good ones that you aren't interested in. Otherwise, things will probably turn out poorly.

[swestrup]

One reason I've never done what you suggest is fear of what answers I might get. Anyway, as I've been happily married for the last 10 years, I have empiracal proof that at least one woman finds me attractive. Yet, I find myself dicounting her opinion because anyone who actually loves me cannot possibly be an unbiased observer. (And I now recall telling someone else how stupid that point of view is, when they told me something similar.) If I was to be completely objective, I have evidence that a fair number of women have found me attractive over the years. The problem is, I find it impossible to believe.

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

That's just self-doubt talking, dude. If people find you attractive, and you still think you're not, then that's a voice that's insane.

Tell it to shut up.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Okay, so that person who loves you, didn't she have to find you attractive? Oh well, maybe I'm just taking this too simply.

I often hear about women who found me attractive years after the fact, so I know how you feel. :-)

[swestrup]

Of course you're right, which is why I once told someone else that the argument was silly. But that doesn't mean I'm immune to the sillyness myself.

The first time a woman made a pass at me, it took two years for the penny to drop, and really, she couldn't have been more blatant if she tried (she rubbed my back with her breasts for about 10 minutes...)

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Oh, I understand the sillyness, yes!

But I do like to think those women were slightly more subtle than that, though. ;-)

[lasher.livejournal.com]

well, maybe you weren't always "attractive" over the years... but if you look remotely like your picture... then I would have to say that you are very attractive. could it be that you didnt see yourself as particularly atttractive at the time... so never asked this girl out (im assuming that you might have if you had known she had a mutual interest) even though the times are a changing, and it is more and more accepted for women to approach men... many women (myself included) dont have the confidence to approach a man and show interest... and when you have a population of men who arent confident and dont approch women... and a population of women that wont do it either... it makes it harder to get together.

but hey, some people are obviously making it work because the population is still growing. lol

[swestrup]

With this woman I was talking about, I had tried to chat to her earlier in the day, and she had bit my head off, so I decided she didn't like me. I guess she was trying to show me that she DID like me.

What was going through MY head was something along the lines of "'AH! What is she doing? She doesn't even LIKE me! Is she completely oblivious to the effect that this is having on me???"

[lasher.livejournal.com]

hahha. yes, i would be quite curious myself if some woman bit my head off and then proceeded to rub her breasts against me as well. lol

i dont get women who are "mean" to men that they like. it seems counter productive.

[swestrup]

Well, I think that it was my poor choice of deciding to talk about the deadline she had just missed... I think it put things on the wrong foot right from the start.

[auriam.livejournal.com]

But the thing is... a lot of women are very finely tuned social receptors, and can instantly tell if someone is being internally consistent or putting on an act to impress them. At least, they have been with me ;). The best strategy, I think, isn't to figure out what the "ideal man" is, and try to be it (or pretend to), but to figure out what general traits are attractive, and emphasize those you have the most of.

[swestrup]

Ah, but I have no idea what general traits are attractive. I have no intentions of putting on a false front to anyone, but I would like to have some idea what is or is not likeable about me.

Lately I've found myself being reluctant to go out and meet people for fear of being annoying, despite the fact that more than one person has told me not to worry and if I were to annoy them, they would let me know. I think not having a job for 2 years has done far more to undermine my self-confidence than many of my friends realize. Hopefully, that will change soon.

[lasher.livejournal.com]

hahha. I wish that I was one of those women with finely tuned social receptors... at least in the romantic area.... i make the mistake of taking people at their word and assuming "what you see is what you get" and that people say what they mean. probably because that is how i operate and i just cant really fathom people being any other way. unfortunately, i have found out the hard way many times, that people DONT always say what they mean... or change their minds quickly or something. though in retrospect, i realize while writing this reply... that i guess that i really do pick up on things with people sometimes... maybe the problem is that i choose to ignore it and want to believe that people are "good" and "honest" and all that Mary Poppins crap. hahahahah

[ims.livejournal.com]

I've long appreciated that I'm no judge of my own attractiveness, for just such reasons. It's hard to imagine any way in which I could be attractive, but I recognise that this means nothing in itself.

On the other hand I have no real evidence that any woman has ever found me attractive, which by this point I find rather suggestive. (OK, I do have some anecdotal evidence that about 20 years ago one girl did, but the same anecdote said that she and her whole family were nuts, so I'm not sure this says much.)

But ultimately I don't suppose it matters if there are hordes of women out there who find me attractive, since clearly nothing ever comes of it if there are.

[lasher.livejournal.com]

Thin women with hearty appetites. So, the best strategy for a woman to interest a man turned out to be to eat lightly whenever he wasn't looking, and to eat heartily whenever he was, which was the opposite of what they were doing.

the problem with this issue is that there are VERY very few women who actually think that they are thin... even the ones who are thin. "thin" or being the right weight... is subjective. of course, there are socially accepted norms of what is "really skinny" and what is "overly fat"... but there are several sizes in between. ive had many very good male friends over my life, and what each of them thought of as thin or not "too heavy" varied widely.

also, attraction is not always purely physical. havent you ever met someone that didnt really wow you in person... but over time as you got to know them, they became more and more physically attractive? or if they didnt become attractive physically, that you were attracted to them as the overall person and that outweighed the need for them to look "beter"?

then there is also the idea of "attractive" like you want to meet and spend time with someone... and "attactive enough" to get sex because you want to get laid. i have suffered from that alot in the past. i'd meet a guy, think that because he talked to me or showed any physical interest that he liked "me"... and after a couple of weeks of sex he'd drop me for someone else... OR I would get the speech.. I've this about 4 times in my life.. "Jenn, you are really nice, and really fun to be around, and gee the sex is really good.. but I just dont have any romantic intentions towards you. But, if you want to still keep having sex... that would be great." WTF?

Anyway, i see now how I left myself fall into these situations and often perpetuated the chances that I would be in them... and sought to change it. but hey, even that didnt work. the one time that i met (online) someone that i thought that we really had a connection... and he actually reciprocated the connection for a few months... on a really like intellectual / soul mate-ish type of level.. well, when we met it was again a situation where.... he acted interested, we had sex, and the next day I got the words "I'm not romantically interested in you".

I know that I am not attractive... but mostly because I am really overweight... and frankly... that isn't hot. I think the issue is maybe less of "what traits do men/women from attractive in men/women"... and maybe more about which traits are more tolerated. "attraction" is very subjective.. we have better chances with someone who tolerates our flaws equally as much, or more, that finds something in us overwhelmingly "attractive"

But what do I know? I'm 32 and never been with anyone that I could call "boyfriend" vs "a guy I know and hang out with and have sex with". lol I am obscenely overweight... which does not work in my favor... and even when I was "thin"... guys never showed interest in me of asked me out. So, I don't even try anymore and just accept life without a potential "mate". Besdies, its all theories right? Physcologists, individuals, etc can all speculate and explain "commonalities".. but the fact remains that it is our individual characterists that count. I think that this type of issue is one of life's unsolved mysteries... and will never be solved because there are too many "individuals" in the world to generalize. :)

[swestrup]

Yeah, North Americans in general have a very strange mindset when it comes to weight. Many women (and men) have been conditioned to think that only extreme slenderness is the idea. Personally, I don't like to feel bones when I hug someone, and I've found different women to be physically attractive at a great variety of weights.

> havent you ever met someone that didnt really wow you in person... but over time as you got to know them, they became more and more physically attractive?

Actually, for me, I find I'm often attracted to things other than appearance. Most of my female friends look far more attractive to me now that I know them, than they did when I first met them.